为什么西班牙没有和中国明朝开战

Brandon Li, I have enough of an education to know how to use Google and the library
Answered Feb 2, 2017

The Spanish leadership in the Philippines seriously considered a major invasion of China in 1586 with 20–25,000 men, half of whom would be fresh Spanish troops and the rest split half and half between Filipinos and Japanese mercenaries. This force was supposed to land in Fujian Province and then make the long 1,500 mile march to Beijing to decapitate the Imperial government. However, the Spanish did have some understanding of the task before them, with the plan emphasizing the need to preserve the existing government system to rule through; they evidently understood that the best way to conquer China was to keep the current method of ruling while simply switching out the Ming Dynasty for the Spanish.
西班牙在菲律宾的领导层认真考虑了1586年对中国的一次大规模入侵,当时有20-25,000人,其中一半是新的西班牙军队,其余一半是菲律宾人和日本雇佣兵。这支部队本应在福建省登陆,然后长途跋涉1500英里到达北京,将帝国政府斩首。然而,西班牙人确实对他们面前的任务有所了解,该计划强调需要保留现有的政府制度来进行统治;他们显然明白征服中国的最好方法是保持目前的统治方式,同时简单地把明朝让给西班牙人。

At this point, it is worthwhile to examine some contemporary conflicts between the Ming and the West. In the early 1500’s, the Portuguese fought multiple naval battles with the Ming over the kidnapping of Chinese children as slaves and were defeated each time. A century later, the Dutch built a massive maritime network in East Asia and attempted to force the Ming into trade on Dutch terms. The Dutch were defeated in a war from 1622–1624 while being forced to withdraw from fortifications they built on the Pescadores Islands between China and Taiwan. Conflict again flared up in 1633 when the Dutch were defeated at Liaoluo Bay, losing 100 sailors, and then again three decades later when Ming loyalists fleeing the Manchus seized the Dutch colony in Taiwan altogether. This impressive track record implies the Ming would have swatted the Spanish aside with ease, but it hides the immense difficulties of each of these conflicts; even in the early 16th century conflicts with the Portuguese, Ming admirals acknowledged that their foes both had more maneuverable ships and better cannon than anything available to China at the time. Rather than technological superiority, the Ming found victory through massive numerical advantages and shrewd tactics in their engagements. Even then, the European fleets could still usually retreat with most of their ships intact. A Spanish expedition would enjoy a qualitative advantage, although not an overwhelming one.
在这一点上,值得考察一下当代明西方之间的一些冲突。19世纪初,葡萄牙人与明朝就绑架中国儿童作为奴隶的问题进行了多次海战,每次都被打败。一个世纪后,荷兰人在东亚建立了一个庞大的海上网络,并试图迫使明朝以荷兰的条件进行贸易。荷兰人在1622-1624年的一场战争中被打败,同时被迫从他们在中国和台湾之间的澎湖列岛上修建的防御工事中撤退。冲突在1633年再次爆发,当时荷兰人在辽罗湾被打败,失去了100名水手,30年后,逃离满族的明朝忠诚分子又一次夺取了荷兰在台湾的殖民地。这一令人印象深刻的历史记录意味着明朝会轻而易举地击败西班牙,但它掩盖了每一场冲突的巨大困难;即使在16世纪初与葡萄牙人发生冲突时,明朝海军上将们也承认,他们的敌人比当时中国拥有的任何东西都更具机动性的船只和更好的大炮。明朝没有取得技术优势,而是通过大量的数字优势和精明的战术在交战中获得了胜利。即便如此,欧洲舰队通常仍然可以在大部分船只完好无损的情况下撤退。西班牙探险队将享有质的优势,尽管不是压倒性的优势。

Besides actual military discrepancies, the Ming bureaucracy by the end of the 16th century suffered from mind numbing inefficiencies. When Toyotomi Hideyoshi invaded Korea in 1592 with over 100,000 men, his forces nearly conquered the peninsula before the Chinese governor of neighboring Liaoding Province sent 5,000 men to the defense of Pyongyang. This small force was easily defeated and it would be months more before the Imperial Court itself satisfactorily completed a fact finding mission and then assembled its army. It wasn’t until 1593, more than half a year after the Japanese overran much of Korea, that the Ming seriously intervened in the war and began rolling back the Japanese. Although the Ming army was still powerful, it moved to war at a lugubrious pace, a huge boon to a fast moving Spanish expedition. The Imperial Board of War responded even more poorly to local raids, which is what the Spanish invasion would have almost certainly been categorized as initially. In 1555, a band of less than 100 Wakou pirates ravaged the lands around the former capital of Nanjing for nearly 3 months before they were put down. Before the end of the fiasco, perhaps 4,000 people were killed by this tiny band which was supposed to have been stopped by the 120,000 strong garrison around Nanjing. However, a result of the corruption of the late Ming meant most of these supposed troops didn’t exist; they were only listed so that commanding officers could collect extra salaries.
除了实际的军事差异之外,到16世纪末,明朝的官僚机构还饱受头脑麻木、效率低下之苦。1592年,当丰臣秀吉率领10多万人入侵朝鲜时,他的军队几乎征服了朝鲜半岛,随后邻省辽定的中国总督派出了5000人保卫朝鲜。这支小部队很容易就被打败了,再过几个月,朝廷就要圆满完成调查任务,然后集结军队。直到1593年,也就是日本占领朝鲜大部分领土的半年多之后,明朝才认真介入战争,开始击退日本人。尽管明朝军队仍然强大,但它以令人沮丧的速度走向战争,这对快速前进的西班牙探险队是一个巨大的恩惠。帝国战争委员会对当地袭击的反应甚至更差,这几乎可以肯定是西班牙入侵最初的分类。1555年,一伙不到100名瓦口海盗在被镇压前蹂躏了南京附近的土地近3个月。在这场惨败结束之前,大约有4000人被这个小乐队杀害,这个乐队本应被南京周围12万人的驻军阻止。然而,晚明腐败的结果意味着这些假想的军队大多不存在;他们被列在名单上只是为了让指挥官可以获得额外的薪水。

Despite these crippling weaknesses, the Ming proved that it could still send over 100,000 men to competently defend an ally against a serious enemy during the war with Japan. It would undoubtedly be able to muster more men to defend against a Spanish army speeding for Beijing. Only after months of unnecessary deliberation within the Forbidden City while the countryside was ravaged of course. As a result, the Spanish wouldn’t have had much of a chance of conquering China, but they would have gotten surprisingly far, not through their own skill, but through the sheer incompetence of the Ming government.
尽管存在这些致命的弱点,明朝证明了它仍然可以派遣10多万人在与日本的战争中胜任地保卫一个盟友免受一个严重敌人的攻击。毫无疑问,它将能够召集更多的人来抵御西班牙军队向北京疾驰而来。当然,只有在紫禁城内经过数月不必要的深思熟虑之后,农村才被摧毁。结果,西班牙人没有太大的机会征服中国,但是他们会取得惊人的成就,不是通过他们自己的技能,而是通过明朝政府的无能。

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Anansakunwat
Pun Anansakunwat, Read Chinese history for 17 years
Answered Jan 19, 2017

It’s impossible for Europeans to fight Ming China at that time.
Unlike the Aztecs and Incas, Ming dynasty was very strong at that time. Its navy was one of the best in the world. Chinese navy defeated the Portuguese navy for twice, and slaughtered most sailors. Only three ships survived the onslaught.
当时欧洲人不可能与明朝中国作战。
与阿兹特克人和印加人不同,明朝当时非常强大。它的海军是世界上最好的海军之一。中国海军两次击败葡萄牙海军,屠杀了大多数水手。只有三艘船幸免于难。

Battle of Tunmen – Wikipedia
突尼斯战役-维基百科

Any Portuguese would be killed immediately, if they landed in the Chinese land.
For the Dutch, they colonized Taiwan, but they were decisively defeated by a Ming general, Zheng Chenggong, when he fled from the Manchu to Taiwan.
I don’t think Spain would do any better than these nations. If Spain landed their army on the Chinese soil, I did not think they would survive a day. They would be all put to the Chinese swords.
任何葡萄牙人如果登陆中国都会被立即杀死。
对荷兰人来说,他们殖民了台湾,但当明朝将军郑成功从明出逃到台湾时,他们被决定性地打败了。
我认为西班牙不会比这些国家做得更好。如果西班牙让他们的军队登陆中国,我认为他们活不了一天。他们都将被置于中国的剑下。

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Quora User, I know some stuff.. I think.
Answered Nov 8, 2015

#1 Because The Spanish wanted to trade with the Ming dynasty and India.
Remember this Guy?
Christopher Columbus wanted to go to India and China from the west because the Silk roads was cut by the Ottoman Turks. So the desire of the Spanish was to make money. Not to find new worlds or commit genocide.
第一,因为西班牙人想与明朝和印度进行贸易。
记得这个人吗?
克里斯托弗·哥伦布想从西方去印度和中国,因为丝绸之路被奥斯曼土耳其人切断了。所以西班牙人的愿望是赚钱。不是去寻找新世界或进行种族灭绝。

#2 The Ming dynasty was one of the most powerful empire at that time and arguably the most powerful in Asia.
“Ming dynasty had fought war with Portuguese, Dutch”
If you know this than you should know that the Ming won. Hence why would the Spanish Empire attack another Empire that’s capable of defeating two of the most powerful navy at that time. Why attack a powerful empire when you can attack weak tribe islanders and make profit off of that.

第二、明朝是当时最强大的帝国之一,也可以说是亚洲最强大的帝国。
明朝曾与葡萄牙人、荷兰人打过仗
如果你知道这个,你应该知道明赢了。因此,为什么西班牙帝国会攻击另一个能够击败当时两个最强大海军的帝国。当你可以攻击弱小的部落岛民并从中获利时,为什么还要攻击一个强大的帝国。

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Randy McDonald, Torontonian and loving it
Answered Nov 8, 2015

The simple answer is that Ming China was far too powerful and sophisticated a civilization for Spain.
简单的答案是,明朝对西班牙来说是一个过于强大和复杂的文明。

In terms of material technology, the most advanced civilizations in the Americas were not especially technologically advanced. At least partly as a consequence of the late settlement of the Americas, and partly by bad luck, the civilizations of Mesoamerica, possessing basic literacy and agriculture but lacking metallurgy, in some respects were closer to ancient Mesopotamian civilizations like Sumeria than to hyper-competitive Europe. Less technologically sophisticated cultures had less.
就物质技术而言,美洲最先进的文明在技术上并不特别先进。至少部分是由于美洲的晚期定居,部分是由于运气不好,中美洲的文明拥有基本的文化和农业,但缺乏冶金,在某些方面更接近古代美索不达米亚文明,如苏美尔,而不是竞争激烈的欧洲。技术不太先进的文化就没有这么多。

It was the terrible luck of the indigenous peoples of the Americas that their hemisphere just had to be discovered by Spain, a country that had just finished up a series of wars centuries long against foreign infidels. That many local powers within the Americas were willing to ally with Spain against their local rivals helped, as did the immense disruption caused by the devastating impact of Eurasian diseases on vulnerable indigenous populations.
美洲土著人民的不幸是,他们的半球只能被西班牙发现,这个国家刚刚结束了几个世纪以来对外国异教徒的一系列战争。美洲的许多地方大国愿意与西班牙结盟对抗其地方对手,这一点起到了帮助作用,欧亚疾病对弱势土著人口造成的毁灭性影响造成的巨大破坏也是如此。

In the case of the Philippines, Filipinos were fortunately less vulnerable. Technologically and epidemiologically, and of course as well geographically, they were part of Eurasia. That the Spanish were able to make headway in the area, eventually establishing the Spanish East Indies, seems to have much to do with the willingness of Filipinos to ally with Spain against their neighbors.
就菲律宾而言,幸运的是菲律宾人不那么脆弱。技术上和流行上,当然还有地理上,它们是欧亚大陆的一部分。西班牙人能够在该地区取得进展,最终建立了西班牙东印度群岛,这似乎与菲律宾人愿意与西班牙结盟对抗邻国有很大关系。

The combination of technological superiority and epidemiological advantage would obviously not have worked in the case of Spain. 16th century China was not only probably the single most advanced country of the world at that time, it was a continent-sized polity. One might as well have expected Spain to conquer Europe. As for the possibility of Spain allying with locals against the Chinese state, even if Spain had been able to project a meaningful amount of military force to the other side of the planet, I doubt that many locals, invested in their own superiority, would have allied with Spain.
技术优势和流行病学优势的结合显然不适用于西班牙。16世纪的中国不仅可能是当时世界上最发达的国家,而且是一个大陆大小的政体。人们不妨期待西班牙征服欧洲。至于西班牙与当地人结盟反对中国政府的可能性,即使西班牙已经能够向地球的另一端部署大量军事力量,我怀疑许多投资于自身优势的当地人会与西班牙结盟。

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Vladimir Menkov
Updated Oct 28, 2017

As others have notes, a successful military invasion of the Chinese mainland was never in the cards, due to the obvious discrepancy of the amount of forces the Spanish could “project” to the South China Sea vs what the mid- or even late Ming could muster against any invaders.
正如其他人所指出的那样,对中国大陆的成功军事入侵是不可能的,因为西班牙可以“投射”到南中国海的力量与明朝中叶甚至晚明能够召集的对抗任何入侵者的力量明显不同。

(The Portuguese, who got to the South China coast a few decades before the Spanish, did sometimes try to behave in China as if it were just another “native state” to be subjugated; that did not work too well for them, as some answers to this question explain: If Christopher Columbus had actually reached Asia, would he have initiated genocide and enslaved Asians as he did with Native Americans? By the time the Spanish got to the scene [coming from Mexico across the Pacific to the Philippines], the Portuguese had already achieved an accommodation with the Ming authorities more or less, and the Spanish must have been aware of this).
(葡萄牙人比西班牙人早几十年到达中国南部海岸,有时确实试图在中国表现得好像中国只是另一个被征服的“本土国家”;正如这个问题的一些答案所解释的那样,这对他们来说并不太好:如果克里斯托弗·哥伦布真的到达了亚洲,他会像对待美洲土著人一样,发动种族灭绝和奴役亚洲人吗?当西班牙人到达现场时,[从墨西哥穿过太平洋来到菲律宾],葡萄牙人已经或多或少地与明朝当局达成了和解,西班牙人一定已经意识到这一点)。

There was, however, some fairly interesting and little known history of Spanish attempts to become involved in China on a scale comparable at least to the Portuguese involvement. In the 1570s-1580s, the Spanish, recently entrenched in the Philippines, tried to establish commercial relations with China. There was a joint operation with a Chinese admiral against pirates, and the Spanish tried to capitalize on it and to obtain some trading rights in China, and maybe even a lease on some offshore island (similarly to what the Portuguese had at Macau).
然而,有一些相当有趣且鲜为人知的西班牙试图介入中国的历史,其规模至少可与葡萄牙相媲美。在19世纪70-80年代,西班牙人试图与中国建立商业关系,他们最近在菲律宾站稳脚跟。与一名中国海军上将进行了一次打击海盗的联合行动,西班牙人试图利用这次行动在中国获得一些贸易权,甚至可能在某个近海岛屿上租赁(类似于葡萄牙人在澳门的情况)。

Martín de Rada was perhaps the most talented character among the Spaniards involved in that project; he could perhaps become as successful as Matteo Ricci in “penetrating” the Ming Empire in a diplomatic and religious way, but he died at 41, and apparently no one as enthusiastic and talented was able to replace him.
马丁·德拉达也许是参与该项目的西班牙人中最有才华的人;他也许可以像利玛窦一样成功地以外交和宗教的方式“渗透”明帝国,但他在41岁时去世,显然没有一个像他一样热情和有才华的人能够取代他。

Anyhow, the Spanish effort in the South China Sea was really run on a shoestring, as the operations had to be conducted at the end of a really long supply line, via the Atlantic, Mexico, the Pacific, and the Philippines. (The eastern route, around Africa and India, was in the Portuguese domain). At some point, the Spanish crown decided to send an official embassy to China; it only got to Mexico, and never managed even to cross the Pacific. The would-be ambassador, Juan González de Mendoza, ended up returning to Spain and publishing a book about China, The History of the Great and Mighty Kingdom of China and the Situation Thereof, mostly based on reports of de Rada & Co., which became a European bestseller.
无论如何,西班牙在南中国海的努力实际上是在小本经营,因为这些行动必须在经过大西洋、墨西哥、太平洋和菲律宾的一条很长的补给线的末端进行。(东方路线,环绕非洲和印度,在葡萄牙境内)。在某个时候,西班牙国王决定向中国派遣一个官方大使馆;它只到达墨西哥,甚至从未设法穿越太平洋。这位未来的大使胡安·冈萨雷斯·德·门多萨最终回到西班牙,出版了一本关于中国、伟大而强大的中国王国的历史及其现状的书,这本书主要是根据德拉达公司的报告写成的,后来成为欧洲畅销书。

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Richard Stanfield, Reads history books for fun
Answered Feb 20, 2017

It was largely a timing issue. While invasion was considered at one point (as mentioned in another answer), the Spanish Empire’s zenith came and went before Ming was well and truly vulnerable. During the 17th century, the one in which the Ming dynasty would come to an end, the Spanish Governor of the Philippines wrote saying effectively “give me at dozen galleons and ten-thousand men and I will give you China.” The Ming dynasty if I recall correctly was presently embroiled in conflict with the Manchu’s that would in a few decades replace them.
这在很大程度上是一个时间问题。当入侵在某个时候被考虑时(正如另一个答案中提到的),西班牙帝国的鼎盛时期在明朝非常脆弱之前来了又去。在明朝即将结束的17世纪,菲律宾的西班牙总督写道:“给我十几艘帆船和一万人,我就给你中国。”如果我没记错的话,明朝目前正与满族发生冲突,几十年后会取而代之。

However, that time coincided with the unsuccessful wars against the Dutch, and against France, in the 80 years war and 30 years war respectively. Simply put, Spain did not have the resources to project power like it had the century previous. By that point they were already heavily reliant on the Dutch for their shipping needs (the irony of which is not lost on me), and their manufacturing capability had dramatically eroded.
然而,那段时间恰好是在80年战争和30年战争中,对荷兰和法国的战争都失败了。简而言之,西班牙没有像上个世纪那样投射力量的资源。到那时,他们已经严重依赖荷兰人来满足他们的运输需求(讽刺的是,我并没有失去这一点),他们的制造能力也急剧下降。

However, if 17th century Spain had the resources and audacity of her 16th century self, subjugating much of the Chinese coastline would not have been out of her reach. While the notion that she could have conquered China is a bit much, as it is simply too far away to maintain the needed forces, she could have forced any government to give into a series of demands ala the “Opium Wars” at the least, and could have claimed many ports along the coast at the worst.
然而,如果17世纪的西班牙有她16世纪的资源和胆识,征服中国的大部分海岸线也不是她力所能及的。虽然她可能征服中国的想法有点过分,因为中国离维持所需的力量太远了,但她可能迫使任何政府至少在“鸦片战争”期间提出一系列要求,甚至可能在最坏的情况下要求沿海许多港口。

Possibly, with time and continued strength, she could have attempted to rule China in a manner similar to the British rule of India, by proxy through a company that has several alliances and puppets to govern for it. However, the Indian Rajas came divided and paranoid of each other, and thus were easier to manipulate. China would not have been so convenient to turn against itself.
有可能,随着时间的推移和持续的力量,她本可以试图以类似英国统治印度的方式统治中国,通过一家有几个联盟和傀儡为其治理的公司代理。然而,印度王公们开始分裂,彼此多疑,因此更容易操纵。中国不会如此方便地背叛自己。

Sources:
Some big ass book I have buried somewhere on 16th and 17th century Europe (If I find it, I will edit)
Mahan’s Influence of Sea Power on History

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Ross Bundy
Answered Nov 20, 2015

The logistics for Spain to invade China were simply too great.
However, Spain was an expansionist power in areas where they held significant technological advantage like the areas you state. Trade with the Ming Dynasty was what financed the Spanish Empire. The Ming Dynasty produced the most and best products in the world at the time and their primary means of exchange was silver. Spain mined gold and silver in the Americas, kept the gold for their own finances, and used the silver to buy Ming products that they then resold for more gold in Europe. Even if it weren’t nearly logistically impossible for the Spanish to do anything against China, it would also have been severely economically damaging for them to do so.
西班牙入侵中国的物流实在是太棒了。
然而,西班牙是一个扩张势力,在一些领域,他们拥有显著的技术优势,如你所说的领域。与明朝的贸易是西班牙帝国的资金来源。明朝生产了当时世界上最多最好的产品,他们的主要交换手段是白银。西班牙在美洲开采黄金和白银,将黄金用于自己的财务,并用白银购买明朝的产品,然后在欧洲转售更多的黄金。即使西班牙人在后勤上几乎不可能对中国采取任何行动,但这样做也会对他们的经济造成严重损害。

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opher Persaud
Christopher Persaud
Answered Feb 1, 2017

In addition to the other answers, I would like to point out that China’s organizational capabilities were never crippled by epidemics the way a lot of New World empires were. Some of the Spanish “force multipliers” in the New World were gunpowder, steel armor, and horses. The Chinese had all of these. Therefore China could create a centralized response to any threat more quickly, and could do it with experienced personnel. China also had a huge population, probably larger than the entire Spanish Empire combined. In short, if the Spanish had landed an army on Chinese soil, they would be very quickly faced with hundreds of thousands of Chinese soldiers, some of whom would have had guns and cannons. The Spanish would probably lose or have to withdraw fast.
除了其他答案之外,我想指出,中国的组织能力从未像许多新世界帝国那样被流行病削弱。在新大陆,西班牙的一些“力量倍增器”是火药、钢盔甲和马。中国人拥有所有这些。因此,中国可以更快地对任何威胁做出集中反应,并且可以用有经验的人员来做。中国也有庞大的人口,可能比整个西班牙帝国加起来还要多。简而言之,如果西班牙人在中国土地上登陆了一支军队,他们将很快面临成千上万的中国士兵,其中一些人将拥有枪支和大炮。西班牙人可能会输,或者不得不快速撤退。

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antine Lovos
Constantine Lovos
Answered Feb 3, 2017

further to the remarks others have already made I must observe the following:
除了其他人已经说过的话之外,我必须指出以下几点:

Despite the obvious advantage of muskets it would never have been enough to offset tens of thousands of Chinese archers. The sheer numerical superiority of the Chinese would have been impossible to overcome at this stage.
Geography. The Europeans were aware that the Chinese hinterland was vast, which was enough to deter them, but they did not have a reliable map which only served to deter them further.
The forces that would be required to storm Chinese walled and/or fortified cities (of which the Europeans were aware) were simply not available.
Logistics. Even the Spanish or the Dutch for that reason must have understood that supply lines would be required to advance into China. That would be a sheer impossibility
尽管毛瑟枪有明显的优势,但它永远不足以抵消成千上万的中国弓箭手。中国人在数量上的绝对优势在现阶段是不可能克服的。
地理。欧洲人意识到中国腹地广阔,足以威慑他们,但他们没有可靠的地图,只能进一步威慑他们。
袭击中国城墙和/或设防城市(欧洲人知道)所需的力量根本不存在。
物流。就连西班牙人或荷兰人也必须明白,供应线将被要求进入中国。那绝对不可能

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Joss Farino
Answered Feb 3, 2016

One of the reasons is China’s way too far to have a big war with them; is not worth it, the Ming even though behind in technology they weren’t that behind and they still possessed resources to make and nice size military. Also other European superpowers such as the French, or the Dutch, or even down east not a super power but still a Empire the Ottomans; they may take advantage of Spain having a full fledge war against Ming.
其中一个原因是中国与他们的战争太过激烈;不值得,明朝虽然在技术上落后,但他们并不落后,他们仍然拥有制造资源和规模可观的军队。还有其他欧洲超级大国,如法国、荷兰,甚至东方不是超级大国,但仍是奥斯曼帝国;他们可能会利用西班牙对明朝的全面战争。

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原文:https://www.quora.com/Why-didnt-Spain-go-to-war-with-the-Chinese-Ming-dynasty

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